Joel Osteen on Gay Marriage
A reporter recently asked Joel Osteen, pastor of the largest church in America, what he thought of homosexuality, and he said, "I don't think it's God's best,"... "I never feel like homosexuality is God's best." But, the Pastor went on to say that he doesn't feel like homosexuality is his issue and that all people should know that God is here for them.I, of course, disagree with Joel about being gay not being "God's best," but I'm glad to see his qualification later. My stance has always been that if gay is a sin like any other, why are so many people paying so much attention to the issue, especially when all the negative attention serves to do no more than push gay Christians away from the church. So kudos to Joel Osteen for sticking to his beliefs while still remembering to witness about God's love.
Unfortunately, the Southern Baptist Seminary President thought Osteen's remarks of love were so blasphemous that he called them "simply pathetic" and chided Joel for not being more judgemental (he really said that). Maybe sending gays to hell is in the President's plan, 'cause he's certainly not helping any gays get to heaven with an attitude like that. My question is: Does he care?
For more on the story, check out Good As You.
On a side note- for those of you not familiar with Joel Osteen and Lakewood Church, which is in my hometown, the church is so big it now occupies the arena where the Houston Rockets once played. They actually had to build more seats to when they bought the arena to accommodate their tens of thousands of members, though.
35 Comments:
This morning for the first time I caught Joel Osteen's program on TV. And then I came across this post you did more then a year ago. I like what Joel has said and I applaud him for not bashing people that are gay. Instead he let me know that just because I am gay doesn't mean God no longer loves me.
More than half of all people in the United States oppose
gay marriage, even though three fourths are otherwise supportive
of gay rights. This means that many of the same people who are even
passionately in favor of gay teens kissing oppose gays on this one issue.
Smiling Joel Osteen was in Boston a while back for a book signing and an O so
grueling two hour worship “show.” The subject of same sex marriage was brought
up, and while it reminded him of his ebony movies xxx
video collection, and temporarily wiped the smile from his face Osteen did manage
to keep his composure long enough to answer in his customary vagaries. But at this
late hour my colleague Ingrid Schlueter, host of the Crosstalk radio program, is
so right when she says:
The church doesn’t need men in skirts like Joel Osteen, effeminized compromisers
who are self-serving, craven cowards. These men betray young gay mature boys who
only speak the truth about creation.
The issue of acceptance of openly practicing homosexuals into the Body of Christ
continues to slither deeper into the apostatizing $evangelical$ community. Note
carefully that I said those guys jerking off and openly practicing this sinful
lifestyle. The reason more
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Of course Christ loved the sinners. Christ also loves murderers, adulterers, etc. granted homosexuality is a greater sin than murder and adultery, Christ's message is still to heal and to help restore. Through Christ you can overcome. However, keep in mind you cannot be saved in ignorance, you cannot simply make an excuse, just because you are gay, that doesn't mean you cannot work to overcome that sin. And just because society in general does not condemn it doesn't make it right. Society also doesn't condemn adultery as it should, fornication as it should. Good luck in overcoming your sins!
To the last poster: Homosexuality is not a "greater sin than murder and adultery." That kind of opinion is just not supported by the bible. Homosexuality may be deviance or involve perversion, but it's not a greater sin than murder or adultery by any means.
For heavens sake, gay people aren't sinners! I am an ardent Catholic all my life and a homosexual. God doesn't believe that homosexuality is sinful because he naturally created me to be who I am today in my mothers womb. It is sinful to defy the natural being that a person is created to be, since defying God is sinful.
I believe gay marriage is not a religious right but a civil right. I live in Massachusetts, and am blessed to live in the most accepting and tolerant state in the US. Gay marriage should be legalized, but I don't believe churchs should be forced to perform same sex marriages if they so wish. SUPPORT GAY MARRIAGE!
All of you that think God created you to be gay or that he is ok with you being gay, I have one question for you, have you ever read the Bible? You can Not believe in God and not the Bible.
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:1
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God?
Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor
adulterers nor male prostitutes nor HOMOSEXUAL offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit
the kingdom of God.
(1 Corinthians 6:9-10)
'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.'
(Leviticus 18:22)
'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have
done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will
be on their own heads.' (Leviticus 20:13)
Listen God does Love everyone but you can not live in sin and expect God to be proud of you. Homosexuality is a sin, so is lying, stealing, and so forth. Do you really think God looks at a murderer and says well done my Child... No, In the same way God is not going to say to a homosexual well done my child.
All through the bible it tells how
God detest sin and Homosexuality is a sin.
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God?
Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor
adulterers nor male prostitutes nor HOMOSEXUAL offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit
the kingdom of God.
(1 Corinthians 6:9-10)
do a little research and you will find Paul uses the greek term "arsenoquenti" He uses it one other time but noone else ever used it in any other writings. noone really knows what is means or the referance it makes.
'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.'
(Leviticus 18:22)
let's list the other detestable things in Leviticus shall we?
1.)men cutting thier beards
2.)wearing clothes with 2 fibers
3.)eating pig and shell fish
4.)remarring your divoced wife.
but here is the one people get caugth up on
5.) homosexuality
you have to follow all the laws if that is the way you want to roll.
I choose to follow grace.
Oh fyi Jesus said "worry about the log in you own eye before you worry about the speck in you brothers eye."
'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have
done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will
be on their own heads.' (Leviticus 20:13)
you need to also add in people of other religions and CHILDREN DISRESPECTING THEIR PARENTS.
Who cares what Joel says. The Bible says it and that settles it: NAU Leviticus 18:22 'You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination. and NAU Romans 1:27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
Joel should address all sin! He is a coward! He skirts every controversial issue!
I am amazed at the people who say that God does not think being gay is sinful. I guess they do NOT believe the Bible is really the word of God. Unfortunately, we can't pick and choose what we want to believe is a sin. The Bible is very explicit regarding homosexuality being a sin and that if this is your lifestyle, you will not inherit the kingdom. Jesus died for everyone, no exception. But he did not die so we could live any way we choose and say that God approves. Now, I think gays are picked on somewhat. I know people who fornicate big time and commit adultery and lie and get drunk and turn around and condemn someone for being gay. The Bible says the same thing about these lifestyles as it does about homosexuality - no inheirtance. You can choose to do God's will or choose not to no matter what your leanings are. Some people are born with an addiction gene but that is not an excuse to sin. Some people are born with horrible tempers or problems with jealousy and envy. It is up to each of us to control our baser instincts. Now, if you don't believe in God and that the Bible is the word of God, than nothing is right and nothing is wrong. WHY? NO JUDGE!!!!
Thanks for the comments guys, even if I disagree with some of them. For all of those quoting biblical scripture and truth, I'd encourage you to 1) look at the history of the Bible and the passages you are citing...homosexuality is a rather new addition to most of them and 2) look at why this sin is so singled out and try to think about it a little.
You can believe how you feel, but anyone that is questioning my faith or salvation should really take a step back and take a look at what that means.
First of all Joel Osteen is a money hungry false teacher. This guy is a showman and not a pastor. If you dance around the bible on certain subjects just because people may not agree with them then that shows how well you stick to your beliefs.
I have no problem with someone deciding to continue in sin (Gay) what I have a problem with is when the person want's to enforce his believes on the society by asking for gay marriages to be legalized. You can practice your beliefs under your roof but don't force the society to accept you. It is as good as saying that polygamy should be legalized. I believe if we have very many influencial polygamists, we may be able to change the law of the united states someday just like gay activists are. America needs help. Imagine everybody being gay and there is no procreation any more in the US. May be we would have to result to importing children from other countries. I am just appealing to our reasoning here. You don't have to accept it but it's the fact.
Hi anonymous. You're saying that being ok with gay marriage is just as good as being ok with polygamy. I'd urge you to think of it differently. I'd say it's just as good as being ok with remarriage.
As a society, we say remarriage is ok even though it's not ok according to the Bible in most cases.
As for your lack of children concern--it's probably the most absurd claim I've ever heard. It doesn't do anything but demonstrate your utter ignorance of the situation (and I'd say wilfull ignorance). No one is saying that all people should be gay. No one wants all marriages to be gay marriages. We are just admitting that there are people that are not attracted to the opposite sex, that are attracted to the same sex, and they should be afforded the same right to love an happiness as you.
Thanks for playing.
Joel is a great motivator always with positive reinforcement messages. I have attended his services at Lakewood, and not being particularly religious, indeed having grave doubts about the existence of God, I nevertheless always leave feeling positive about myself and the world around me. Lakewood is an all-welcoming, positive environment and we certainly need that these days! (whether it would be the same if I flaunted my sexuality openly is another matter!).
I still have problems about accepting that the Bible is the word of God, without error and ommission ... and such like! It is a collection of writings by MEN editted by MEN with their own political and sociological agendas and the previous posts are so right: if you accept what the Bible says about homosexuality then you also have to accept what it says about eating shrimp, and killing children who do not respect their elders, the rich to give up their wealth to the poor ...! No argument!
Therefore, the Bible has to be read with a pinch of salt, and taken for what it is: not THE word of God, but a collection of moral tales that speaks to the good in us that we all aspire to have.
Recommended viewing "For the Bible tells me so" - I dare you to fail to be moved!
I am an amish man and from time to time am able to use email at one of the offices where I work from time to time. I agree that anyone that wears clothes that has more than one fiber is no better than a man that commits any of these other sins listed. let's start here. For all of you that are wearing clothes that have more than one fiber you are sinning and will be in danger of God's judgment. Each day you wear clothes that have more than one fiber or sleep on sheets with more than one fiber, you are sinning, it is in the Bible. Do you read the Bible? Do not commit this sin again if you believe in God, if you believe in God you believe in the Bible for there iw no other way. God is the word and the word is God, do not wear clothes of more than one fiber, do not wear clothes of too many colors. you are showing off. Be humble and God will lift you up.
Someone post the following versus from bible to demonize gays. But people don't you get it? The underline says STOP lying to your wife that you are straight while you're truly gay and sleep with another man ! It says if you are gay be gay and don't lie to a woman, sleep with a woman !
'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.'
(Leviticus 18:22)
'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have
done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will
be on their own heads.' (Leviticus 20:13)
Believers in God do not argue with these stiff necked people. We live in a wicked country where homosexuality is becoming a norm for this wicked and unbelieving generation. Nature also bears witness that men with men and women with women is unnatural. Also it is possible that a person can feel that he or she is attracted to the same sex because we are born in sin. Since we are born in sin thoughts like those can easily enter ones mind. Thats why Jesus Liberates us from being a slave to sin and gives us freedom through the blood he shed on the cross. So know this children. God loves you but he despises sin. Also Jesus said if you love me keep my commands so the matter is not about God's love for you its your love for God. If he said its WRONG and you reject him then what does that say about your love for him? You have a choice today(free-will). Repent and be forgiven or live in sin and suffer eternal damnation. God has sent you a warning and invitation through me so please take it with life or death consideration. I love you all and may God bless, restore, set free and make whole.
God did not day just because you are gay, you can love God as much as the straights. God did not say just because you are you more sinful than the straights.
Actually, nature says quite the opposite. Over 500 documented species exhibit some type of gay practices. Here is the short list:
Red-tailed Skink
Cuban Green Anole
Side-blotched Lizard
Desert Grassland Whiptail Lizard
Speckled Rattlesnake
Desert Tortoise
Water Moccasin
Fence Lizard
Western rattlesnake (Crotalus viridis)
Five-lined Skink
Western Banded Gecko
Gopher (Pine) Snake
Whiptail Lizard
Green Anole
Wood Turtle
Inagua Curlytail Lizard
Appalachian Woodland Salamander
Black-spotted Frog
Mountain Dusky Salamander
Tengger Desert Toad
Acanthocephalan Worms
Harvest Spider
Alfalfa Weevil
Hawaiian Orb-Weaver (spider)
Australian Parasitic Wasp
Hen Flea
Bean weevil
House Fly
Bedbug and other Bug
Ichneumon wasp
Blister Beetle
Incirrate Octopus
Blood-flukes (Schistosoma)
Japanese Scarab Beetle
Blowfly
Jumping spider
Box Crab
Larch Bud Moth
Broadwinged Damselfly
Large Milkweed Bug
Cabbage (Small) White (Butterfly)
Large White (Pieris brassicae)
Checkerspot Butterfly
Long-legged Fly
Scarab Beetle (Melolonthine)
Clubtail Dragonfly
Mazarine Blue
Screwworm Fly
Cockroach
Mediterranean Fruit Fly
Silkworm Moth
Common Skimmer Dragonfly
Mexican White
Sociable Weaver
Creeping Water Bug
Midge
Southeastern Blueberry Bee
Cutworm
Migratory locust
Southern Green Stink Bug
Digger Bee
Mite
Southern Masked Chafer
Dragonfly
Monarch Butterfly
Southern One-Year Canegrub
Eastern Giant Ichneumon (wasp)
Narrow-winged Damselfly
Spreadwinged Damselfly
Eucalyptus Longhorned Borer
Parsnip Leaf Miner
Spruce Budworm Moth
Field cricket
Pomace fly
Stable Fly
Flour beetle
Queen Butterfly
Stag Beetle
Fruit Fly
Red Ant
Tsetse Fly
Glasswing Butterfly
Red Flour Beetle
Water Boatman Bug
Grape Berry Moth
Reindeer Warble Fly (Hypodermatarandi)
Water Strider
Grape Borer
Rose Chafer
Green Lacewing
Rove Beetle
It's interesting how if you remove the bible or koran or any other document man wrote or verbally passed on about his beliefs about what he thought some entity told him, there would be no god. God exists in the minds of men and they rationalize all sorts of cruel and unusual punishments they dish out daily to the inhabitants of this planet. Some of these men are mindless or rather thoughtless about it, choosing to blindly follow the books or oral histories passed down. Others justify their beliefs with exotic or emotionally laden experiences they conjure through prayer, incantantions, rituals or other repetitive actions that invoke the experiences. Men hate and they use religion of every variety to perpetuate their rightousness for doing it. Men are a mere blip on the map of the universe. What I hear in every forum or blog or newspaper, etc. is men's desire to matter, to have their opinion or beliefs count and more often than not to control the beliefs, practices and thoughts of others through some sort of god said threat. Many years ago some fellow created an entity called The Flying Sphaghetti Monster or something ridiculous like that to make a point about how men argue over how their god(s) or goddess is the only true and right god while obliterating any good intentioned meaning in creating a religion in the first place.
The problem is, religion refuses to recognize reality, and that includes science. To become a pastor or priest, requires no more "education" than memorization of key scriptures of the bible (a book with 99 different translations/versions).
As a str8 guy, I have no idea why gays flock to churches to worship a god that supposedly hates them (just ask "his people").
Christian fundamentalists often blame "homosexuals" for every malady this country has, more notable terrorist attacks and hurricanes. It is taught in seminaries as well as in churches.
I also wonder why gays, who pay the same taxes and fees as straights, endure the lack of equal treatment under the law.
They must demand the same rights we str8s have, and demand it hard, and demand it NOW.
Until and unless science (not uneducated priests and pastors) can prove that homosexuality is chosen, we must assume that they are people as perfect or imperfect as everyone else.
But the main reason I believe homosexuals (not lesbians - because many men love to see lesbians have sex) is deplored, is because str8 men believe gay behavior is an affront to straight behavior.
When we realize the only god is the one(s) created by religion, then we will all enjoy true freedom.
I welcome anyone to challenge me, or to just say "hello."
Have a great day, evening, or whatever time of day or night it is where you are!
PS: When I gave up religion, I gave up hate. It is so enlightening to live in love than in hate.
ocelotusa@yahoo.com
Some truly skilled trolls here. I am in awe and admiration.
I am gay, and I do not believe in Gay Marriage. I believe in being pure, chaste, and clean until I die that I may present my body very clean, pure and chaste till I come to the Kingdom of God as the Bride of Jesus. I rather choose to marry with Jesus, then to covenant to go hell. Those guys who marry in the civil marry against Jesus and covenant to go hell forever and ever are damned. I love Jesus more than all of you. I am a conqueror in Jesus. amen.
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.' (Leviticus 20:13)
The true meaning: If you are gay, don't sleep with a woman.
You guys are truly ignorant, the ones making A BIG FUSS OVER HOMOSEXUALITY.
OPEN YOUR DAMN MINDS AND HEAR ME:
Since yall consider homosexuality as a sin, then yall should also make a big deal about:
1.)men cutting thier beards
2.)wearing clothes with 2 fibers
3.)eating pig and shell fish
4.)remarring your divoced wife.
but here is the one people get caugth up on
5.) homosexuality
FOLLOW ALL OF THESE THINGS IF THAT'S HOW YOU WANT TO PLAY YOU IGNORANT PIECES OF CRAP!!!
Just to illuminate the polygamy issue for ignorant Christians, your Bible requires polygamy. It is called the Levirate law and a man is REQUIRED to take his dead brother's wife as his own and raise up children with her. Onan was punished with death for not fulfilling his obligation to give his dead brother's wife children. Here is the reference: Gen. 38:8; Deut. 25:5-10. Also, the Bible also says that God gave Saul's wives to David as a reward. Yet, almost all modern Christians demonize polygamy and equate it with homosexuality. A "Bible believer" cannot pick and choose which texts to follow. So take it all and apply it, or shut up. The Bible teaches ruthless patriarchy, racism and the death penalty for many things modern "Bible believers" themselves ignorantly practice.
I have been watching Joel Osteen for the last couple months. My husband and I are 51 years old and we have two sons, one straight, one gay. My husband's younger brother who is in his 40's is gay. My 50 year old cousin is gay. But in our opinion and yes it is just Our Opinion, being gay isn't a sin. Murdering someone is a Sin, Molesting or Raping someone is a Sin, Stealing is a Sin, having an Affair is a Sin, but being attracted to someone that is the same sex as you is not a sin. Sins are when people set out to Hurt people.
Joel has said that God loves EVERYONE. But does he really love the murderers, rapists, drug dealers etc etc. ?? I just read this great website
What the bible says - and doesn't say- about Homosexualtiy
http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian
We can't always believe everything we read or agree with what everyone has to say. We are our own people with our own thoughts and ideas.... but I might not always agree with Everything Joel says, but with that said..... i do enjoy watching him every week, because he does have a gift and he has great stories to tell that make me feel good and make me smile.... here is one link of his sermon that he talked about Judging people and I have watched it 3 times in the last few days.... I wish more people would take the time to watch it and learn from it....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xg7EOrHWOsM
I'm sorry, but gay people have a keen "gaydar" sense and in my opinion, I believe Joel Osteen is a closeted homosexual.
I agree with the last comment. Joel is very feminent. I too have suspected him to be a closet gay. And it is very typical for a closet gay to also be homophobic to divert attention from his own sexuality or sexual fantasies.
I just don't get it that these people believe homosexuality is a sin. Actually, I am not a homosexual, but I know many and have absolutely no problem with them existing in this world. In fact, they are by a long shot much kinder, sensitive and compassionate people, not to mention often better educated, refined and interesting. The issue for them is that most (if not all of them) were simply born this way. If we accept that all G-d's creatures are acceptable in His sight, then we must surely see that G-d loves people. Full stop!Haters of any human being cannot call themselves godly in any way.
I see alot of post containing scriptures form the bible. Remember that these scriptures are the words of others, NOT JESUS. God gave us 10 commandments. Remember what they were? They were the ONLY rules GOD asked man to live by. Think about this. If GOD created Adam and Eve (only) where did everyone else come from? Incest! Here are the 10 Commandments.....
1st
I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2nd
Exodus 20:4-6 You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my Commandments
3rd
Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God In vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
4th
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD your God: in it you shall not do any work, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger that is within your gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
5th
Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
6th
Thou shalt not kill.
7th
Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8th
Thou shalt not steal.
9th
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
10th
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
WHERE in those commandments does it say anything about gays or incest for that matter? I am under the umbrella of neither of these categories but there is one thing everyone, including Joel Osteen needs to remember, we are ALL direct descendants of ADAM AND EVE. No matter where we come from, the color of our skin, or the religion we practice, we are ALL related. ALL man WAS created equal, stupidity, ignorance, and greed changed that.
either way you take it this is immoral behavior. None of the people practicing sexual immorality feels good about it. there is simply no other way: one man and one woman and one love forever. this is the true fundation of family.
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from you, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When people try to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.
I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to follow them:
a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev.1:9).The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7.In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanness (Lev.15:19-24).The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
d) Lev.25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev.11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
g) Lev.21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?
i) I know from Lev.11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread cotton/polyester blend. He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them (Lev.24:10-16)? Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev.20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
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